padawanlost:

They would
be given a choice: renounce their “dark ways” and return to the fold or be
considered lost. If someone was considered beyond “salvation” they would either
be exiled or killed.

“As Jedi learn more about the Force, it is not unusual for them to form their own theories about how and why it works. They question how, if the Force creates and sustains life, it can have a dark side. Some arrive at the conclusion that the Force is not divided into dark and light, that its energy is inherently positive, and that there is no “dark side” waiting to corrupt them. Time and again, this conclusion has been proved erroneous, and the Jedi who felt compelled to test the limits of the Force rarely perceived the dangers of their explorations. As they approached the brink of the dark side, some were rescued by other Jedi or came back willingly when they saw the error of their ways. Those who refused to renounce their mistaken beliefs were either exiled to the farthest reaches of the galaxy, or destroyed.”
[Ryder’s Windham’s Jedi vs. Sith: The
Essential Guide to the Force]

If exiled they would
probably end up in a prison like the Citadel. But, considering how the PT-era
jedi dealt with dark side users, they would most likely end up dead. Walking a way from the
other was only allowed when the person was not a dark side user. If you went
dark side, living peaceful away from the Order was not an option because the
order would consider them a potential threat to the galaxy. You would either
end up dead, arrested or on the run.  

wingletblackbird:

In my post Pros and Cons of the Jedi Order: Their Intent and Where They Lost Their Way, I discussed the problems that come with a Council that choose their own members with no external sway. I said, 

The issue is that it elects it’s own members. As such, the council elects members that they feel support their position… This enables them to clamp down on opposing perspectives, and can easily stand in the way of alternative perspectives. It is a dangerous way to govern, and promotes ignorance. New ideas are far less likely to get anywhere.

I decided to look a little further into Council Members in TPM and identify lineages therein. I noticed some very interesting things.

Yoda: The Oldest Member of the Council

      Ki-Adi Mundi: Yoda’s former Padawan. 

Plo Koon: The padawan of Tyvokka. It was suggested that Qui-Gon be given the seat, but Tyvokka lobbied for his own former apprentice instead. After all, Qui-Gon was too grey. Tyvokka, as a Wookie was one of the more longer-lived races and was likely close to Yoda. Indeed, Yoda is known to have “good relations with the Wookies. Koon and Tyvokka may be considered close associates of Yoda, if not of the same lineage.

Mace Windu: The apprentice of T’ra Saa who was a very good friend of Yoda’s. T’ra Saa, like Yoda was of a long-lived species, so this friendship was able to grow quite deep

     Depa Billaba: Mace’s own padawan

Yaddle: Her appointment was unanimous except for opposition from Yoda.    

     Oppo Rancisis: Yaddle’s former padawan. Also closely mentored by Yoda.

Even Piell: Unusual in that he held more of a connection to his homeworld, and that he appears to have no former connection to the Council.

     Adi Gallia: A Jedi who was indebted to Even and admired him greatly.

Saesee Tiin: The padawan of Omo Bouri who also once sat on the High Council.

Yarael Poof: Little is known about his background with regard to the Council.

Eeth Koth: Little is known about his background. 

At least, four of twelve are in Yoda’s group. Ki-Adi Mundi, Depa Billaba, Mace Windu, and Plo Koon. They are all either of Yoda’s lineage, or apprentices of his good friends. Half or more are the former padawans of previous or current council members. Indeed, the Council in TPM can widely be divided into three camps: Yaddle’s group, Yoda’s group, and those whose background we aren’t certain of. Incidentally, the dynamic is scewed in Yoda’s favour. 

It’s really no wonder Obi-Wan, (who is quite ambitious), could confidently say Qui-Gon would be on the Council if he weren’t so maverick: As an apprentice of Dooku, he already has one foot in the door. It’s certainly no wonder Obi-Wan was chosen to be a Council member: He was Dooku’s grand-apprentice, of Yoda’s lineage, reverent of the Council, talented, and he was their ticket to controlling Anakin. It’s no wonder Anakin was offended to not be a Master, (one of many reasons behind his reaction): His former master was on the Council. Anakin had the talent, the accomplishments to his name, and the lineage. At this point, it’s practically an unwritten rule he ought to be on the Council eventually too! There is undeniably a great deal of nepotism going on here, and the Council chooses people who help them maintain their comfortable worldview for better or for worse. 

wingletblackbird:

This started with the intent of trying to look objectively at what the Jedi did well, and what they did not do well. Ultimately, it turned into an essay on how they lost their way. It is undeniable the Jedi Order was a well-meant organisation. However, corruption seeps into even the best organisations. It’s just how things go. People are fallible. After taking a survey, and talking to other fans as well, I tried to organise the various ideas I encountered. I would like to thank @redrikki, @thendstartsnow, @klorophile, and @padawanlost for their thoughts on this subject. I would also like to thank @gffa. We seem to have  differing viewpoints on the Jedi, at least at first glance, but I enjoyed our talk nonetheless. 

It appears unanimous that everyone agrees the Jedi Order was an organisation with good intentions. They stood for peace and justice. They stood for freedom. They stood for compassion. They stood for peace. They stood for enlightenment. They stood for selfless service and sacrifice. They should have stood for love. Not surprisingly, on an individual level, it was made up of many great, if flawed, people–characters we all know and love. I think everyone can agree that what the Jedi Order stood for was desirable. The question comes down to execution. I would like to discuss the Jedi Orders doctrine, their hierarchy, their relationship with the Republic, and their relationship with the general populace to analyse what they did well in achieving that goal, and where they finally failed. (Enjoy @anakinskywalkrx)

Seguir leyendo

redrikki:

padawanlost:

I don’t
think so. The problem with indoctrination is that it prevents you from seeing
beyond what you’re told. It alters the way you think and they way react to things.
Any padawan’s reaction to seeing anything dubious about the Jedi Order would
include running to their masters and/or the Jedi Council to tell them. The
Council would either dismiss it or blame it on the “Dark Side” (because they
couldn’t see beyond what they themselves were told when they were first indoctrinated).

The Jedi
are good. Anything more complex than creates a problem. That’s why the Jedi
were so conflicted by the end of the war. They were seeing the truth about the
galaxy for the first time and that unbalanced them. They were told the Jedi
were beloved and respected throughout the galaxy but now people are picketing
the Temple. They were told the Force was always on their side but now there is
so much they can’t no longer see. They were told the Council represents the
will of the force but now the council is constantly making mistakes.

Their worldview
was so skewed they couldn’t conclude there was something wrong with the Order
even when facts hit them in the face. Acknowledging the Jedi Order was doomed
was a traumatic event for anyone indoctrinated by them. The ones who were able
to see it were so broken they left everything behind, turned dark side or just
accepted it.

Dooku, an
older and wiser master, saw exactly what was wrong with Order and how to fix
it. They didn’t listen. When the Clone Wars began, many Jedi left because they
knew it was wrong for them to become generals. They didn’t listen. Qui-Gon Jinn
knew the Order had serious internal problems but he stayed and decided to do
his own thing because he probably knew the Jedi order wasn’t prepared or
willing to change.  

The Jedi
were indoctrinated to be hard-or-die members. Living that “lifestyle” was
almost impossible without a traumatic event to force them into action. Many
Jedi only realized something was off after Order 66. Some Jedi failed to see
anything wrong even after they died.

And we are
talking about Jedi Masters and Knights. Experienced, somewhat self-sufficient
Jedi. For a padawan to realize all of this and leave would be nearly
impossible. The padawans we saw during the clone wars were not the usual
padawans. Prior to the war, padawans were forbidden to leave the Temple without
their master’s permission and they couldn’t have friendships with outsiders. Everything
they did and saw was regulated by the Jedi Council. The only reason Ashoka was
so self-reliable was Anakin’s teachings. He taught her about the real world outside
the temple. He taught her a trade. He allowed her to be educated outside the
Temple and foster friendships with non-Jedi. No other padawan had that kind of guidance.
And even so, it took the Council allowing her to be executed without any irrefutable
evidence to wake her up to their flaws.

That’s why I
don’t think a padawan would ever realize, by themselves, what was wrong with
the Jedi order and the tragedy that was coming their way. And even if they did,
I don’t think they would leave or do something drastic about without a major eye-opening
event forcing their hand.

PS: THANK
YOU ❤

In the Kanan comics, there’s some really great commentary on Jedi indoctrination. Caleb is know for continually asking questions about, well, everything. Reactions to his questions are, well, mixed. Here’s the exchange with Jocasta Nu during a class about how padawans are selected.

While some of is instructors and peers seemed to find his continually questioning the Order annoying or possibly threatening, his eventual master Depa Billaba chooses him for that exact reason. Towards the end of the war, she had come to believe that the Order’s decision to become officers had been the wrong one. Here’s his reaction:

It turns out she picked him because she wants to find a way to introduce peaceful dissent into the Order and thought he might be the one to do it. Of course, like, a minute later Order 66 happens, but points for effort.

There’s another panel where Caleb, lost on his own without money or friends, thinks about what he learned at the Temple.

It’s a pretty subtle but damning look at indoctrination within the Order and how questions of any sort were viewed.